Lived Experience Forum

[chibam]

Sorry if I'm being disruptive here, but I really don't understand what's going on in this thread. Are people saying (or at least playing with the idea) that they like feeling bad?

I don't like feeling bad - ever. Ideally, I would never, ever feel bad. And when I do feel bad, that's a problem I want fixed, because I don't want to feel that way.

So when I read threads like this, where people are saying that when they feel bad, they don't want that to be fixed, it really makes me wonder what's going on.

I've had several grenades of confusion thrown at me about this issue in recent years. And this thread just adds to that confusion. And it probably wouldn't be so bad, except for the major implications it has upon our engagement with society.

Am I surrounded by people who think "it's fine to be miserable"; and by extension, who believe "it's fine to inflict misery upon others"? If that's the foundation of our society, a misery-based econemy, then...

Well, the hows and whys don't seem to matter anymore once you start going down that road. Suffice to say that I don't want to live in a place like that.

[LostAngel]

@saltandpepper  I would like to say that you have in no way upset me with regards to this post  

[saltandpepper]

Hi @chibam thanks for dropping by. I understand your confusion, it's hard to communicate it all clearly.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can't say I enjoy feeling misery either. I'm not sure anyone does really.

I understand that some people don't experience depression to the chronic degree that I do, where it is a daily battle every day of life. My depression is not something that will get better, but this is not true for everyone, perhaps this is what's causing the confusion. I see what you're saying, that bad feelings are bad, so we want to fix them. But for me, the bad feelings aren't something that can be fixed. So while I can see that if someone is going through a period of feeling depressed, a period meaning it will pass, then my approach won't make sense for them at all. And as you say, would be a harmful perspective.

For me, in my instance, my condition is chronic and it can be managed but managing it doesn't mean I am free from it. I still experience severe bouts of depression despite being medicated and seeing a psychologist regularly. I also experience times where I can function quite well too. But no matter what, depression, for me is always there, always. For me, adopting the general societal view that my condition will one day, with treatment, resolve, is painful for me. When I am suffering through an episode like I have been this week, the concept that despite getting the help I am still not "fixed" is harmful to me.

I certainly don't enjoy it, I wouldn't be on the forums trying to pull my ass of this shitty week if I enjoyed it. I'm just trying to shift my perspective so that I'm not beating myself up for being the way I am. For me, I try to see my depression as part of me. Because being rid of it isn't possible for me, but managing it is. I understand it's not the common view, and as we're chatting I see it's definitely not a helpful view for those experiencing a depressing period in life. But maybe it's helpful for people who struggle with complex trauma and chronic conditions to know that we're not wrong or bad because despite everything there are always days when we can't fu*king do anything. 

Again, I'm really  not trying to upset anyone here, and I hope I've been able to explain myself better this time

@chibam @QueenBubsy @HenryX @postman-404 @LostAngel 

[saltandpepper]

@LostAngel Im really glad to hear that

[Last-Lament]

Hi @chibam Thank you for sharing your perspective on this subject matter, it's important we see a variety of sides to these sorts of discussions. 

With respect,and trying the best I can to be clear, concise and 'practical' (I can't htink of the word I really want - I have brain damage that among other things affects my abilty to find words) I'd like to offer my view on the discussion happening in this thread, hopefully without causing upset or disturbance for anyone. It is, after all, only my view.

 Are people saying (or at least playing with the idea) that they like feeling bad? 

I guess I can see how you could get that idea, and perhaps some people do feel that way. 

My depression is chronic, long lasting and to add to that I have almost died from various reactions to medications, so it's not been an easy process to try to manage. It's compounded by CPTSD and chronic anxiety with some other health stuff thrown in for good measure. 

Understanding all of that, for myself, I know there is no getting better for me, there is only managing the physical, mental and emotional damage that has been caused/happened to me. I know that this is so because I have tried so, so many things and gone to great lengths to 'get better', and the truth of my situation is that the damage is too ingrained for it to be changed, the only option is to manage. This applies to the physical damage done in childhood/ youth abuse that has affected me throughout life. Visible damage on x-rays and ultrasounds. It also applies to the impact damage to my brain function. 

The emotional and mental damage of long term abuse is known to have long lasting effects, especially when not able to be treated early enough to have significant effect. We can try all sorts of modalities to find some better days, but they aren't a cure.

I am thankful for the better days when something has worked, I truly am, because I DO NOT like feeling bad. I have had to accept that I am going to feel bad, and that things are going to get worse as I age even further, my medical people have told me this is a fact of my life. 

I also understand that different situations have different causes and some of those situations may well be able to be truly mended/ fixed/ cured. 

Perhaps the wording in these posts have, for some people not been as clear as it could be, when we are stressed and trying to think things through, we often can't consider that others might see what we've said as offensive.

It's very difficult trying to keep in mind all the possible interpretations someone might make of words on a screen, and it makes for lengthy, tiring posts trying to cover all bases. (like mine can be)

IMO - Society is selfish, it needs to be needed and interacted with or it won't interact back. In many instances, one must play a certain game, fit in a certain societally accepted pigeon hole to be seen fit enough to get the attention one really needs. Overweight people experience this all the time, as do many with MH issues. There are more of course. 

I don't engage with society anymore, I can't, I don't have the wherewithall to be what someone else wants me to be. I do sometimes hope for that to be a possibility and I do work toward being able to function well enough to get by, but I will never feel safe enough to be the life of the party so to speak, again. 

Understanding these things is not necessarily accepting 'being miserable' either. It's recognising that there are degrees of managing whatever one's situation is.

If one can't get out of bed one day, then that's how it is. The next day they might complete every task for the month ahead, or not. One has to find one's own sense of what is okay in order to function with some degree of calm, of peace, of serenity, of acceptance. 

Acceptance does not mean giving up. 

Am I surrounded by people who think "it's fine to be miserable"; and by extension, who believe "it's fine to inflict misery upon others"? If that's the foundation of our society, a misery-based econemy, then...

While I understand this is how you've viewed this, at least for now, there doesn't necessarily need to be a correlation between the two. One who feels miserable does not usually inflict that misery on others unless there are other things going on healthwise. Miserable people usually do their absolute best to cover up that misery around people and only let the mask of happiness drop when they are alone and safe. 

Having said all of that about this thread, I do think there are people who enjoy being miserable because they get something back out of that. I also think there are people who aren't necessarily miserable, but who enjoy inflicting misery on others for what ever reason. I don't understand it, I'm not one of those people, but I have known those types of people and have suffered at the hands of one or two of them. But that is not what this thread is about imo. 

I do hope this maybe gives you a bit of a different outlook on the perspective others have, and thank you again for sharing yours here too. I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts should you be willing to share them. 

[chibam]

---

@saltandpepper wrote:

Hi @chibam thanks for dropping by. I understand your confusion, it's hard to communicate it all clearly.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can't say I enjoy feeling misery either. I'm not sure anyone does really.

I understand that some people don't experience depression to the chronic degree that I do, where it is a daily battle every day of life. My depression is not something that will get better, but this is not true for everyone, perhaps this is what's causing the confusion. I see what you're saying, that bad feelings are bad, so we want to fix them. But for me, the bad feelings aren't something that can be fixed. So while I can see that if someone is going through a period of feeling depressed, a period meaning it will pass, then my approach won't make sense for them at all. And as you say, would be a harmful perspective.

For me, in my instance, my condition is chronic and it can be managed but managing it doesn't mean I am free from it. I still experience severe bouts of depression despite being medicated and seeing a psychologist regularly. I also experience times where I can function quite well too. But no matter what, depression, for me is always there, always. For me, adopting the general societal view that my condition will one day, with treatment, resolve, is painful for me. When I am suffering through an episode like I have been this week, the concept that despite getting the help I am still not "fixed" is harmful to me.

I certainly don't enjoy it, I wouldn't be on the forums trying to pull my ass of this shitty week if I enjoyed it. I'm just trying to shift my perspective so that I'm not beating myself up for being the way I am. For me, I try to see my depression as part of me. Because being rid of it isn't possible for me, but managing it is. I understand it's not the common view, and as we're chatting I see it's definitely not a helpful view for those experiencing a depressing period in life. But maybe it's helpful for people who struggle with complex trauma and chronic conditions to know that we're not wrong or bad because despite everything there are always days when we can't fu*king do anything. 

Again, I'm really  not trying to upset anyone here, and I hope I've been able to explain myself better this time

@chibam @QueenBubsy @HenryX @postman-404 @LostAngel 

---

Okay. I think I'm sort of understanding what's going on here now. But I can't relate.

For me, depression isn't something that's "just there for no reason"; it's something that's inflicted - either by society as a whole, or specific people therein. So, if I had a genie of the lamp who could alter the world around me in whatever way I wished, I could always correct the source of my depression.

In the absence of such powers, however, I have to settle for formulating imaginings of how the world should look, then focussing on them so intently that I'm as blind as possible to the depressing real world around me. I'm actually pretty good at it. Not perfect, but I often impress myself with my ability to correct the world in my own conciousness.

I guess what frustrates me is that in a lot of the dialog you hear about depression, people get it really, really wrong, in terms of people in my position; and so the remedies/approaches that are proposed are either totally inappropriate or grossly unfair regarding the expectations inflicted upon the sufferers.

But the problem is, I think, that "depression" is being used as an all-encompassing term that covers numerous situations with immense differances between them. So people are looking for one approach to depression, when really they are hopelessly trying to formulate a single approach to cover numerous very differant situations.

[saltandpepper]

@chibam Yes exactly, couldn't agree more. And I think that's sort of what I'm trying to get at, that at least for me, the generalised concept on treatment for depression doesn't fit for me, and it actually is harmful for me to look at it that way. Where as, you're right, someone who doesn't have chronic depression would probably find my perspective harmful to them. Interesting.

And in my case, my mental health issues certainly aren't "there for no reason". I don't know that anyone would have depression for no reason. But the difference being the severity and cause of it. As you said, people can feel "depressed" in response to certain life situations, without actually being clinically depressed. That's the difference. My depression is a result of years of abuse and assault... It's not for "no reason", but for the longest time it felt that way. It's only been in the past few years that I've come to face the extent of my mental health issues and really exlpore the cause of it all. For the longest time I struggled because I was led to believe the way I was treated was ok, when it wasn't. Not going to lie, it's getting hard for me to explain myself here. It's never been for no reason, and it's hitting me hard hearing that again after spending so long trying to understand that all the suffering I've been through wasn't for no reason. I'd been abused, for years. That in itself is difficult enough to grapple with, but when you pile on that I'd been brainwashed to the point I thought it was normal and ok and I deserved it... I thought I was wrong, bad, and yeah I thought I was depressed for no reason. And that's why it took me getting to the point of suicide to do anything about it.

I'm struggling to get this out in a way that's going to make sense. Please be kind with your responses here. Admittedly my state of mind is a little fragile after the past week

[saltandpepper]

@Last-Lament Thank you for your articulate and compassionate response--as always. Feeling relief in reading your words here

[Appleblossom]

@saltandpepper 

I found your opening post relevant to my understanding of depression and not problematic at all.  You were respectful asking for input.  The main thing I sense is that that when separating ourselves from the reality of what we are feeling we create inner conflict. Eg., when I finally gave into my need for bedrest, which I needed to do for a few years, I eventually found a time when I totally surprised myself at being able to bounce out of bed.  I just really needed the rest, and when my body had enough, it felt better.  Before then I had been at war with myself, which perpetuated my difficulty.

[Fruitloops]

Your not meant to fix "bad " emotions. No emotions are actually bad. They are all equal and valid. You are meant to just accept. Give up the struggle against what you actually feel and you begin to feel better.